Is Better Web3 UX the Key to Mainstream Adoption?

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Introduction and Background

[0:00] Victor: We are live.

[0:03] Bob: Are we live?

[0:04] Victor: We are live. Yes.

[0:06] Kieren: So StreamYard says.

[0:09] Bob: My browser window doesn't say live.

[0:13] Brian: You guys have an intro? You like to do?

[0:17] Victor: Yeah. Well, first.

[0:18] Bob: Here we go. Here we go. Yeah. There we are.

[0:23] Victor: Go ahead. Bob.

[0:24] Bob: So. Hello, everybody. I guess I guess I guess we're ready to go. So so today we have a special guest with us. It's the first time that that you and I have met Brian. But you are very familiar to all of my colleagues here as. As an ex. Apsa.

[0:47] Brian: Yeah. Crypto ex.

[0:49] Victor: You are never an ex block, sir. You're always, like, part of Team block.

[0:54] Kieren: The alumni network.

[0:55] Victor: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[0:57] Brian: Yeah, yeah. You guys gave me my first opportunity to work in Ethereum back in 2017, which it feels like ages ago. I mean, it is ages.

[1:05] Kieren: Lifetime.

[1:06] Victor: Yeah.

[1:07] Brian: Yeah. So thank you guys for that. Happy to be on here. It's always great seeing you guys around. And so talking about one of my favorite topics.

[1:15] Bob: Welcome. So yeah so welcome back. Would you like to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what pistachio is.

What is PistachioFi?

[1:24] Brian: Yeah sure. So Brian Smoker smokes on on Twitter. We're building pistachio fi. It's a, it's a mobile first neobank a built entirely on crypto rails meant to provide premium savings with premium security and the whole concept of better UX. Right. Like, I will get to the question in the moment of does, is UX the key to mainstream adoption? But I wanted to really just build something that, you know, I think I think self-custody is really important to me and I think really important to a lot of people about why we originally got into this space. But the UX for a lot of these apps was just always so terrible, right? And so I just want, I wanted to, to be the change that I wanted to see in the world and so decided to just say, screw it. Built my own you know, basically taught myself UI design in order to kind of to kind of begin this in the beginning and then built it literally by willing, willing pistachio into existence and many, many, many, many, many iterations of building the app. And now we're at a point where I feel very blessed that we've been, you know, publicly recognized by many Ethereum talking heads in, in the sense of being recognized for our UX and what we've been designing and doing and building and doing things in a way to just bring more, more people on chain.

Shipping Fast and User Feedback

[2:56] Bob: I see that you the number you said was 18 versions in five months.

[3:04] Brian: Oh, we've we've pushed out several since that tweet. Probably at least 3 or 4 so that. Yeah, we we we ship a lot. We ship and it's a lot of just talking to users and finding what's broken. What's wrong? I'll, I'll be at a conference, and we'll literally stand over people's shoulders as they download the app and, like, watch and every little tap, right, like, oh, the focus is wrong. Like, the focus is not beyond the keyboard in this certain one certain instance, or the search is showing the wrong things. You know, and so every little that's the kind of the thing about UX is you design something and then you build it. Right. And then it's of course it's going to be bugged. Everything is always bugged. Right? And like we go through rigorous testing to do it, but then when it goes on to somebody like very specific use case because they touch certain things in a certain way. And that's what triggered this one bug. Or it's on a certain app or a certain operating system or phone. It behaves in a certain way. And then also when you get to see the person use it, you're like, oh, there's a big button there. They're going to press it, they're going to press it, and then they don't press it. And you're like, why? Why do they not press the very clear call to action that I made. And so it's just like the only real way you can track things through things like mixpanel and appsflyer or right to see, like the UX flows. But you're going to miss all the little details of every single user interaction. And so just being able to like, watch and categorize that and implement that is like a big part portion of what I think makes our app more successful.

Web3 UX Challenges vs FinTech

[4:35] Kieren: Let me let me ask maybe a slightly controversial question. So if you think about like fintech 1.0 companies, I would say they greatly improved the UX on the legacy financial system. Like it looks way better. It works. It's not nearly as much of a mess as the like Schwab interface or what have you. And this worked significantly. Maybe Robin Hood's perhaps the best example, but, you know, I think so. Maybe that's like the baseline expectation. But is, is this sort of like the totality of UX? Because I think one of the challenges in crypto is like, there's stuff that's bleeding through that's complicated or scary and all of that too. And, you know, so what is your take? Like for my understanding, I think you guys are multi-chain, but like inheriting all of the problems from the layers below to, you know, so, like what? How do you think about that?

[5:32] Brian: There's a there's a lot to fix. I think you're right in that Robin Hood is sort of that shining example of, of fintech generational UX, UI of making things easy, fast, gamified in a way. I really love Venmo as an example. I think Venmo is a very good example of really, really good UX, but not really being good UI. And that UI doesn't necessarily matter So much like the UI, the UI of Venmo is, is sort of even like. Almost antiquated in a way. But the UX is done beautifully. And and that reason is because it's like the user they approach it from just like instead of like a feature. It's just a user problem. Like, what is the user problem? It's like of sending money, right? You open the app, it's got this big send button and it's just it's so simple and just like a few clicks to send money to someone and then withdraw it to their bank. And so like they very much honed in on that very specific UX without even really caring so much about how sexy the UI is. Right? And so with Web3 UX, we have an entirely different set of problems that goes very deep just to get to parity with with traditional finance and fintech. And that's so it's like when it comes to like Web3, for example, especially with Ethereum, it's like, okay, we have we have gas. We have to worry about, we have token approvals, we have to worry about, we have multichain, which we have to worry about. We have bundled transactions if there's multiple transactions. Right. And so luckily, all of these things are now like there are solutions for these right between like 4.337 and 7702.

[7:12] Brian: There are ways to implement pay masters. There are ways to bundle transactions together. There's ways to do zapps. Not everyone does all of these things and does it all together. It's like pistachio. We do all of this, right? We do it all together, all in one go. One thing that, like we don't do, for example, is like, maybe within Web3 gaming, there's this concept of session keys and it's like, oh, okay, if I'm going to have a game, do I then have to sign every single transaction for everything that goes that gets written to the blockchain? It's like, no, you just do a session key, you sign one says you sign in. Basically, as you're signing into the game or app, you sign a session key for that extends for that period of your your your gaming session. Right. And so that basically absolves away or abstracts away that problem as well. So there's a lot that it takes for like a Web3 company, again, to get to parity of all these things. There are ways to solve it all. It's just a matter of like, does the app creator under stand all of these things? Are they aware of all of these things? Do they care enough to do all of these things right, like some of the major apps or wallets, even like I love I'm a big rabbit user. They still don't have 7702 implemented. Right. And so there's a lot of these like big players that still don't have these, these available UX implementations live and integrated into their apps.

From Sales to UX Design

[8:35] Victor: I'm curious, Brian, because like, you know, just to reveal some of the background, right? When you were working for us, you were like a sales guy, how did you teach yourself about UX and product design? I'm glad you know, you've joined the dark side.

But it's like, what got you there? And you know, what made you feel like, okay, this is something I can take?

[8:59] Brian: Well, I've always honestly really loved the product side. Like, I think I had like a natural ability to be a salesperson. Like, I love to just chat and create rapport.

And I think that's very important for sales and marketing. But at the end of the day, I really just had a knack for I think it was more of like a just a natural inclination to this sort of thing. And then once I realized it, and I started to do it, it's one of those, it's like the natural calling, right?

Like when you find something that you really like, you don't really know that you really like it until you're doing it and knee deep in it. And then now suddenly, I'm spending 12 to 15 hour days working a website or whatever it is, right? Just because I'm like, I'm obsessed with being able to do this and improve it.

So like, when I was learning UX UI, it was like some courses that I would take and do that. And then a lot of it was just trial and error. And I think a big part of it was having my own thing.

And I'm sure Kieran can, or I mean, I think all of you, both you guys can can relate to this is that once it's yours, you know, there's a different sort of obsession that comes with it rather than just like working for someone. Like when you're you work for someone, it's like, oh, okay, I get equity options and this and a paycheck, and that's nice. That's not as much skin in the game as truly owning something and having being like aligned of like, okay, if I kill this, like, I get monetarily incentivized just because I killed it and it's my baby, right?

So I think that sort of shines a lot in being like a founder and growing your own application. And then it's just like, I have like an obsession with it, to be honest, like I have an obsession of talking to users and understand what makes it better. And just like the perfectionist in me of seeing something wrong and needing to smooth it over.

Right. And so I think all of that has just like, aggregated to and led me to where I am today.

[11:14] Victor: And yeah, I mean, one of the benefits of being in the space so long is we've gotten a chance to work with some great people, and we could always see that you had that sort of entrepreneurial spirit. It's interesting that it's come out in this. I'm, you know, I think one of the challenging thing about UX for people that come from pure sort of technical backgrounds is the ability to listen when people say, hey, this is wrong or I don't understand this. Like, that seems to be a big hurdle that you know, a lot of truly technical people just can't get over sometimes.

UX as Empathy

[11:47] Brian: And it comes down to in which I think maybe is makes it hard sometimes for technical people to get into this as well, is that I say like UX is just empathy, just like brought to life. Because at the end of the day, it's like you very, very much need to just be be able to put yourself in your user's shoes and to empathize with, oh, okay, this isn't good enough because they're being frustrated, which should frustrate you, right? Like if it's going to piss them off, it should piss you off that it's not good enough. Because like, if you don't have that empathy, if you don't have that ability to, like also be frustrated, then you're not going to care enough to fix it, right? It's like you should be pissed if a user is going to be pissed. You should be pissed.

[12:35] Victor: Yeah, 100%.

Target Users and Normie-Friendly Design

[12:38] Kieren: Who do you see your target user as? And I guess, I mean, you know, there's like there's full on normies, there's crypto natives, there's. But, you know, I also like, interested in like age ranges and all that sort of thing, because I think maybe both of us. But, you know, it's like it's hard to define exactly like the bucket, like they probably are crypto friendly, but maybe, you know, anyway.

[13:05] Brian: We will be normally we are normally friendly. Like if you want to invite your your your I want to say your parents, but your dad's a bit I think beyond the rest of us when it comes to being crypto native. But when it comes to like, let's say like siblings and family, I want it to be, like, friendly enough that you can invite these people without fear of throwing them to the wolves of, of volatility, of risk, of perps, of, of scams, of rug pulls, all these things. And so it's designed with all of that in mind. But really, my ideal user, my ideal customer is probably between the ages of like 25 to 55 that are crypto inclined that probably have been in crypto for some time that have large amounts of funds on chain that want to be able to not need to off board crypto into the bank, that want to have a sort of high quality, self custodial, high security, but highly convenient mechanism within their pocket that values convenience, that value security, but that also values privacy, and that has the ability then to not let their funds if they're going to risk off into into stables, for example be able to easily earn safe, curated, high quality yield that is at least double of what is US treasuries without being exposed to equities and then being able to spend or transfer that money very quickly. And so that's sort of like just talking to a lot of people seems to be the very like bread and butter of, of people that I think would work very well of like a customer user base of people who can at least put five figures into my app. Preferably at least 50 grand into the six figures that would also trust pistachios. Security mechanism. Because of the amount of due diligence and and effort that we've put into our system to protect our users, to trust that as well. But also, if you want to like, invite your friends, your family to make it easy just to get on chain, this is the easiest way, right?

Why Web3 UX Has Been Bad

[15:18] Victor: So why do you think the UX has been so bad in Web3 for so long?

[15:28] Brian: I think it's a large disconnect of people building and people talking to users. Especially a lot of like, I talked to a lot of founders. I love to talk to founders. I like I meet so many people. Like one of the coolest parts about being a founder is just sort of like in that natural like BD aspect is just I meet so many people and like about what they're building. And very frequently I'm asked to to basically audit people's UX UIs, just give feedback. And I think a big part of what people build is they build because people want to build an MVP, they want to build fast, they want to build something. And it's like it's a hard chicken in the egg problem of like, how do I talk to users if I don't have anything for them to use, right? Like if I don't have an MVP, if I don't have these. And so people then build in this direction of, okay, well, I'm just going to build a product and then I'm going to get users right. And so realistically what they want to do is they should be like building the product. But as you're building it you want to talk to potential users. You want to talk to people who you think this problem is solving. Right? Because it's not just you shouldn't just be building an app or like a feature set. Again, you need to build to solve for a problem. And so like when you're building the solve for that specific problem, you really need to go to your friends and be like or people.

[16:48] Brian: I mean, first your friends, because they're just the most likely to give you help. And it's like, do any of you have this problem? Like, find friends who have this problem. If you don't, it's not necessarily a red flag, but you do have to keep going out there and find people who have this problem. And then if you go out and you don't find people who have this problem, eventually you're not solving a problem, right? Like, you're you're you're you're you're creating a solution in search of a problem instead of actually like finding people who would be willing to, like, test out what you're doing and then show them the the earliest iterations. Right. And so figuring out that of, is this confusing? Is this good? Is this bad? Is this is this specific UX really actually solving the the core problem that we set out to solve at the end of the day? Luckily, I think a lot of builders these days set out to create companies specifically because they encountered problems in their earlier careers or usages. Right, of that. Let's say you, you work in like a B2B company or you're creating a maybe you're a founder for a company and you're like, dude, this is such a pain in my butt, right? That you're this one, like, particular thing. They go on to create a company that that goes to solve that problem, right? It's like they're dogfooding their that own pain.

[18:03] Brian: Same thing with B2C and kind of like I love to use crypto and be on chain and love all of these different apps and trying all of these things. And that's what led me to where I am with, with, with creating, like, right. Because I would dog food, all of these apps essentially, and just be like, okay, well, this isn't good enough. This isn't good enough. And so I think that that's sort of the main reason that that creators or app builders, I think they maybe try to create something for, for maybe to be cool or to add a vanity even or potentially to trace a trend because they see this is where all the money is going, right? Like people are chasing perps right now. Like how many thousands of different perps companies are there that are trying to, like, go and go out and get money. Also because people, for better or for worse, you know, they try to chase that trend because they see that's where like the VC money is flowing to and they see, oh, if I can get on that VC train, then I can get the money to build this. Right. And like chase that trend that maybe that's the hot narrative that everyone's investing in. And so there's like all these they're getting pulled in all these different directions instead of going really back to the core of what problem do I want to solve?

Technical Evolution and Infrastructure

[19:12] Victor: Yeah. I mean, my kind of theory and one of the challenges Web3 has had is that, you know, in the first phase of Web3, really, we're just trying to solve technical problems, right? Like make, make it work at all. And the people who did those things kind of succeeded to a sin. And then. But those people that can solve, like those super hard technical problems are not the kind of UX people that can kind of think like, oh, from a user perspective, really. Right. They're thinking more about, okay, how do we solve that technical problem? And that's really where I think the shift has kind of happened. And, you know, I think you've caught it at the right time.

[19:51] Brian: I think there's a lot more engineers these days, too, that are more savvy in that way, like towards design, like more like hybrid engineers who have that back, like back end, front end. I mean, just full stack, right? Who then are now also intrigued in, in design. And this because maybe they, they built their own thing from scratch and they, they were forced to write as opposed to just like a straight up back end engineer who's, who's doing these things.

[20:15] Kieren: One thing I'll say I now code again occasionally, because the AI has gotten so good, and if it has a template like it's it's not so good at UX from scratch. But if it has something to work from, I'm like, no, just like generate a component like this and do this and it usually gets it right within a couple times. So the iteration cycle is so much less painful than it used to be. Absolutely.

[20:38] Victor: And I and I found with my web2 startups and my mobile startups that like one of the reasons, you know, I was like CTO of the first startups, and then I switched to product because I realized that like, hey, by turning step three into step one, I could like ten x the usage overnight, right? So it's like that, but it's a totally different mode of thinking than, oh, how am I going to get the code out the door and get all of those things?

[21:05] Brian: Also, the infrastructure really didn't exist for a while. Like I remember vividly, like one time we were at the Block Apps office, and Vic, you said in the office, like like mobile web three sucks. Just, just I just I remember I don't even remember the I just remember you going on about it. And it was true for such a long period of time is that the infrastructure needed to basically bring Web3 to mobile didn't exist for the longest time. And this last like bear cycle of of crypto, a lot of VC funding went to infrastructure. It's still not good enough, but that's fine. It's always improving. But the fact that a lot of infrastructure now exists that didn't exist back then, or even just libraries, right, of people being of having SDKs that are compatible with React Native or just like native mobile languages to make it easier for developers to just take that and go and build and integrate because we need that, like, I can't, we can't build everything from scratch. Dude, like, as much as I would love to have everything in-house, especially being a bootstrapped company is like, no, we need people to have like proper they need to have like good docs, good SDKs, good APIs, like hardened stuff that we can just take and use and that we don't have to, like, bash our heads against the wall trying to integrate it because it doesn't work.

[22:28] Victor: I yeah, I kind of remember that conversation. I think one of my frustrations at the time was like, talking to some of the Ethereum devs, and they were like, yeah, we have a mobile solution, we're going to run a node on your phone. Do you know, like battery life is important to me.

[22:46] Bob: This is where I started. Remember?

[22:51] Victor: Yes, we tried to run it on a watch.

[22:52] Victor: You tried to run it on a watch.

[22:53] Bob: Man 2014. Smart watch. That was my first project. Was seeing if I could get CPP Ethereum running on a smartwatch. And I didn't that. But Geth worked. Geth worked on a smartwatch, and it was because it was so early, right, that the chain was quite small. It was kind of just about workable. And there was a thought at the time, well, you know, yeah, we're going to have like a light client thing. There isn't yet. But you know, you get it. We'll get that going. And I'd say same with on the desktop. Right. We missed you know missed missed had an embedded you know.

[23:27] Victor: Yeah.

[23:27] Bob: It was just a thought that. Yeah. You know, it might be a bit slow, but, you know, we'll optimize it. It'll get tenex. It'll get 100 x.

[23:34] Victor: Yeah. Have you ever built a mobile app before?

[23:37] Bob: Obviously you're going to have, like, this stuff. It'll just run inside like every router. It will just be like an OS level sort of service.

Mobile Development Challenges

[23:46] Brian: Mobile app sucks. It's hard. It's really hard, especially by Apple.

[23:52] Victor: That's like a that's like a nightmarish process.

[23:56] Brian: That I think that was the easy part. Dude, that was like, it's like, that's hard. But that was the easy part. It's like building a Web3 app that's multi-chain on multiple operating systems is just the amount of edge cases that exist is a nightmare. That's like been the hardest part, like our last, like we launched in June or like May June. And then literally all summer was just just like hardening the app and discovering and smoothing over edge cases.

[24:26] Bob: And I see you've just launched on Android as well. Congratulations.

[24:30] Brian: Thank you. Publicly at least, you know, we've been we've been like I'm a big soft launch guy if you can. We're always probably soft releasing something ahead of time if you dig hard enough. But yeah. So Android took the a while like months longer than Apple because it's much easier to develop on Apple, right? It's like everything's standardized. Everything just works across every single device. On Android. It's like, okay, you have to worry about basically you have to worry about like optimizations going back far enough to like Android 12 to cover like 90% of use cases, 10% of the world still runs on Android 11 and below, which is almost absurd. And then if you're doing that, you also have to worry about hardware optimizations, right, to make sure that the app itself is lightweight enough to work on like very like base level Android devices, right? Because they cost very low and most of the world has a lot of these, just like really cheap devices. Okay. So you can't like bloat the app so much. It has to be optimized for that. And then the amount of like different like screen types and like getting like the edge to edge display to work via like React Native Expo was also not working very well. And so a lot of people that launch apps on different devices, right. They maybe don't use React Native Expo, maybe they, they have like native to to each device. And so there's not even like good libraries that help on expo for this like like expo just launched like edge to edge display like two months ago. Like like like these things still aren't very public. And so my CTO even wants to launch a library like a publicly available repo, just to help with all of these all of these hardships that we had to go through firsthand, essentially.

[26:18] Victor: Yeah, I remember, you know, in my last company, there was a mobile company to make sure things run on, like iOS. We ran it on two devices. In the simulator. We had a table of Android devices like. And just to kind of like test all the configurations.

[26:35] Bob: There's probably, I don't know, 10,000, more than 10,000 different like Android.

[26:41] Victor: Yeah. I mean, I got a couple over here too, but, like, you know, like TVs and tablets and whatever, right? They're all different and they're all. I'm really curious, like, you know, when you made that evolution to a founder, as you were talking about before, what what was the biggest challenge that you faced? Do you think?

Founder Journey and Challenges

[27:07] Brian: The biggest challenge, it evolves over time. Right? Like as I level up as a founder, the challenges get bigger in a way. I think in the early days, one, it was getting people to align with my vision. It's like I have this vision in my head and I can talk about it, but then there's always a disconnect from what someone else's interpretation of my vision is versus what I have in my head. And so that's why I learned UX, UI design. So I can like literally just like put it into Figma and show someone and be like, this is what I want, right? Like this is how I foresee it. And so that was the first challenge. And then I got my CTO on board because he was like, I love this idea, let's do it. So then we did that. And then the next challenge was the architecture, right? And so then the architectural solution of of vendor selection, which I was talking to someone earlier today about this vendor selection is a nightmare. Like I luckily already knew what chain I wanted to work on and what like and how I wanted to be like multi-chain. So that was good. And then it's like, okay, so now to be like a robust multi-chain application, this is pretty cutting edge technology, especially if I want to use like a can abstraction and smart accounts, like very few people are sort of working on this, especially in the mobile era. And so like the infrastructure available to us at the time was fairly limited. And then it's like, okay, we have to worry about like key storage and how do we do recovery and how do we keep people safe.

[28:29] Brian: And like these are all the different vendors. Like for all every different there's there's a different decision for a different vendor at each part of the stack. And being able to basically understand web three deep enough to understand the trade offs of each different vendor and what they bring. And okay, well, what's the price? Because we're unfunded, right? So I have to make sure it works within my realm of my budget. While also being able to make sure it's scalable in the long term. If we if we if we do go into this thing and then how do we how do we do do we do things to be modular? Do we do things to go like purely vertical stack? Does that lock us in as a vendor? Do we want to be more modular? And and then we've had opportunity. We've had moments where we've had to just rip vendors out of our stack because they're not performant enough. They're not elite enough, you know? And so by removing them and upgrading whatever we had, which sets us back in delivery time, right. So which took us a lot longer to, to to build this stuff, especially as like a literally a two person team for the longest time. We just hired our second full time engineer last month. But like it's just been me and my CTO for the longest time and like, thank God that I understand like Blockchain architecture as deeply as I do or my CTO would have, it would have been all of this would have been on him, and it made it much easier being able to share that experience.

[29:49] Victor: That's awesome. But yeah, it's it's as you say, every, every step there's a new challenge. But, you know, I think it's also like just kind of being excited, like, you, you work really, really hard as we can see. So like, I think it's really exciting to hear about where you've gone to with this project and just in general.

[30:10] Brian: Thank you. Yeah.

Ready for the Normies?

[30:11] Bob: Yeah. I'm just looking at the time, Brian. So let me just ask you one last question, perhaps.

When? When are we ready for the normies?

[30:23] Brian: We're already ready for the normies. At least pistachio is right. We can. We made it so that onboarding is very smooth, very easy. You don't have to worry about seed phrases. You don't have to worry about even having your phone stolen. Right? Like, we can recover everything in progress, programmatic ways in. Secure ways as well. That's not going to get you hacked or thrown to the wolves. And so but at least the next, the next wave of updates that we're going to be doing is going to be really cool, too. I think, like, it's just like the ability to essentially the alpha is like the ability to send bank transfers from an on chain account, like to to specific accounts all over the world for very, very cheap. So like stuff like that is going to be really cool because that solves real pain, right? It's like this idea of going back to before literally what I've been talking about like crypto and even to, to tie it all in for the is better Web3 UX the key to mainstream adoption? And I don't think it is right. It's like better UX is the key to any app adoption, right? It's why we've seen Robinhood or whatever get big. But there needs to be a fundamental problem and fundamental pain being solved at the end of the day. And if our ability, if my ability to send an on chain transaction and have it arrive as an ACH transfer or a spei transfer from the US to Mexico for only a dollar.

[31:53] Brian: Like that's that's significant pain being solved because like the most common applications right now that do it are, let's say like Dollar App or Felix, and they do it for like a $3 flat fee, which is still pretty expensive for considering if you want to send money to someone. If you only want to send in small amounts, right? It's like $100. That's a 3% fee. That's quite high. And so we can basically do it in a way with like no limits, no caps. You can send $50,000 for, for a dollar if you want to do it, like with banking rails or if you want to just keep it on chain and keep it in pistachio. Right. It's it's free. Unlimited as we all know how you can like send money and in crypto land, right. You can send $1 million in a second for for only a few cents. And on pistachio every all the peer to peer transactions are free. So I think we're ready for normies right now, but it's just about increasing the amount of increasing the the use cases within the app to very soft to solve very distinct pains, painful expensive pains. That's the way to do it.

[33:03] Kieren: Okay.

[33:03] Bob: Well, thank you very much.

[33:05] Brian: Thank you guys for having me.

[33:07] Brian: Yeah. It's good to see you, Kieran.

[33:08] Brian: I know you gotta gotta run.

[33:10] Kieren: At least some of us will will be at some of the international events. Maybe we can catch up there.

[33:16] Brian: Yeah.

[33:16] Brian: Perfect. Please, if you guys are going to eat Latam in Brazil or Dev Connect, I'll be at both of them.

[33:20] Kieren: So cool.

[33:21] Victor: We will definitely be there. Look forward to seeing you in person, man. And I want to see your talk. Shares details about your talk man.

[33:28] Brian: Yeah, absolutely. Will do.

[33:31] Victor: Take care.

[33:31] Brian: Okay.

[33:32] Bob: Thanks so much.

[33:33] Brian: Thanks.

[33:34] Brian: It's great to meet you, Bob.

[33:36] Bob: You too. Cheers. Bye bye.

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